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{Disarmed} Re: [HAPS-L] online classes - was Bio lab kits
Amen, John. I wholeheartedly agree with your comments on standards. That was the point of the question. Why many schools do not specify that the science course is online is because they know that this might affect transferability, depending on the lab. If a program finds that a lab course must have a wet lab then a virtual lab course will not substitute in transfer. Schools that use the exact same course numbers for courses with wet labs as those with virtual labs without communicating the delivery method cause major problems for students who want to transfer coursework to another school and those who must assess the transcript. Because of this situation, one may not assume that a course on a transcript matches the catalog description or the description may be too vague to determine the means of delivery.
Wet lab courses at our school do not have a virtual version. If a totally online program believes that a virtual science course and virtual lab are satisfactory and meet the needs of the program, then that at least is up front and visible. A totally different course would then be written and identified as online delivery. Usually, these courses are used to complete a program and are not intended for transfer. Students should be told about the possibility of transfer problems if they change schools when they take such courses.
I hope we, as members of HAPS, do examine online HAP instruction and hopefully are able to write a position. Guess it is a good time to address the issue-maybe in sunny San Diego.
Sandy
Sandra K. Stewart, Chair
Life Science Department
Vincennes University
1002 N. First Street
Vincennes, Indiana 47591
sstewart@xxxxxxxx
812.888.4373
FAX: 812.888.4540
Sandra
In this thread about online labs, you used the phrase "if the course has
rigor, why not do it?" The problem that I continually face is that there
are no national standards in biology courses or degrees today. There are no
nationwide accreditation agencies specific to biology, and because "biology"
is such a diverse field.... anything goes. What is left as a 'standard' for
'rigor', are the opinions and judgements of diversely trained, differently
focused, and differently interested groups of faculty. A prof from one
background might judge a course rigorous and one from another group might
not. Is this so bad? (see postscript) After all, this sounds pretty normal
in academe, but biologists profess to teach a 'science' and we stress to
non-scientists that we use best available evidence, good experimental
design, high standards of judgement in our statistical methodology to make
decisions. So lets do just that. To avoid problems with the self interests
of individual judgements, lets propose:
1. HAPS should use its existing suggested course description as a base and
ask for members to participate in a nationwide study of their delivery
methods. The null hypothesis is broad: Actual labs are equal to online
labs. Assessment tools need to be specified, maybe the HAPS standardized
exam for one, and possibly measures of acceptance rates in nursing/allied
health programs, etc.
2. HAPS should then act on the findings of this study, making several public
presentations at AIBS, NABT, AAAS, etc. declaring either delivery methods
are equal or they are not.
3. I would suggest that those with interest in teaching virtual labs should
NOT be the ones judging whether their course has rigor, but of course they
can participate in the above study. I have a conflict. For instance, if I
develop a virtual lab at my university, then I get a bonus of >$3000. I
should seek a disinterested scientist to judge rigor, but I should attempt
to collect the information that would be useful for this judgement.
In the long term, if we as biology professional need to control our own
standards (Like ACS does for chemistry) rather than let interested
individuals or worse, a non-scientific administrative body define our
standards of rigor. We win the respect of the non-scientific public, when we
are willing to apply the scientific principles that we espouse to develop
best practices. There probably are already studies that can point to 'best
curricular practices in biology' including delivery of HAP labs. Maybe
these studies also looked at the overall effectiveness of virtual biology
and chemistry classes. Then again, maybe not. HAPSters can play a role.
Maybe HAPS should lead the call for standards within these courses (I
think they have been doing this admirably, but maybe more can be
accomplished, and in the process stimulate NABT or AIBS to pick up the
gauntlet for other biology courses). A HAPS certification/accreditation for
my department's A&P courses and of the faculty we hire to teach HAP labs
would be an important step. I would like to see HAPS lead the development
of assessable standards specific to actual as well as online HAP labs and
possibly address the some of the combination delivery modes used as well.
Certification of online HAPS courses? Why not, if they have our definition
of rigor. I have learned from experience that if we do not lead the
discussion, we will be forced to accept any version of HAP labs delivered.
John Smith
East Stroudsburg University
PS> I watched with horror as faculty at one institution gutted their BS
Biology with Education certification, dropping Gen Chem II, Organic II, and
additional biology electives. That is the result of not having biology
accreditation.
On 2/22/07 1:57 PM, "SStewart@xxxxxxxx" <SStewart@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> John, section numbers do not appear on transcripts. Our Registrar's Office
> and I spend a lot of time trying to ferret out courses considered for
> transfer. I agree that course delivery should be clear - use of a different
> course number, for example. If the course has academic rigor, why not do
> it? If there is resistance to do so for the reason given in a follow-up
> response in this thread, then it apparently needs to be done.
>
>
> Sandra K. Stewart, Chair
> Life Science Department
> Vincennes University
> 1002 N. First Street
> Vincennes, Indiana 47591
> sstewart@xxxxxxxx
> 812.888.4373
> FAX: 812.888.4540
>
>
>
> "John Moore"
> <JMoore@parkland.
> edu> To
> Sent by: <HAPS-L@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> HAPS-L-owner@haps cc
> web.org
> Subject
> [HAPS-L] online classes - was Bio
> 02/22/2007 11:54 lab kits
> AM
>
>
> Please respond to
> HAPS-L@xxxxxxxxxx
> g
>
>
>
>
>
> At our college, day classes have a section code of 001, 002, etc.
> Evening classes are 050, 051, etc. Online and hybrid classes stand out
> with codes like 940. We have already had our students turned down at
> other colleges because of online/hybrid courses that were detected via
> transcripts.
>
> jm
>
> John Moore
> Professor - Anatomy, Pathophysiology, Forensics
> Natural Sciences Department
> Parkland College
> 2400 W. Bradley Ave.
> Champaign, IL., 61821
> (217) 373-3732
>
>>>> "David Evans" <devans@xxxxxxx> 2/22/2007 11:43 AM >>>
> You put your finger on it John. There is a code by which one could
> identify a distance course from us but I believe an outsider would
> have
> to chew through a lot of documentation to uncover this on any
> transcript.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HAPS-L-owner@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:HAPS-L-owner@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of John Smith
> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:33 PM
> To: HAPS-L@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [HAPS-L] Bio lab kits
>
> Dave
> Our administration and our PA state system in general are also pushing
> for broad acceptance of online coursework, even to replace labs. The
> PACyberschools are one such initiative. One of our system universities
> has replaced biology and is working on replacing chemistry labs,
> citing
> the cost savings by going virutal.
>
> Our Biology faculty attempted to insert wording to block acceptance
> or
> transfer of credits of "virtual labs", but were told that very few
> high
> schools or colleges actually mark the transcript to indicate that labs
> were taken online. Therefore, it would be unfair to students whose
> credits were not accepted just because their college actually listed
> the
> courses as online labs, while other online labs were transferred
> undetetected into the college.
>
> How do you avoid the transfer problem when most universities do not
> practice full disclosure of actual delivery methods?
>
> How did you convince your administration to allow you not to accept
> such
> courses?
>
> We are now trying to have any online courses from our university
> listed
> as such, but of course, the admin believes that this might hurt the
> student's ability to transfer our courses.
>
> One would hope that truth in advertizing would apply to all
> univeristies, but maybe universities of quality must lead the way,
> listing all delivery methods in the transcript, and announcing their
> policies on acceptance of online laboratories.
>
> John Smith
> East Stroudsburg University
>
>
>
> On 2/22/07 8:08 AM, "David Evans" <devans@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> For whatever it's worth: PCT so far has resisted accepting A&P
>> transfer credit when we know the lab is "on-line."
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HAPS-L-owner@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:HAPS-L-owner@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
>> Behalf Of dario-beckerj
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 6:30 PM
>> To: HAPS-L@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [HAPS-L] Bio lab kits
>>
>> Hello Hapsters,
>>
>> Do any of you who are teaching A&P online or as a hybrid course know
>
>> anything or have used the At Home Sciences, Inc. Bio kits? I have a
>> colleague who said folks at Colorado Community Colleges Online are
>> using these kits and students do not need to set foot on campus to
>> complete a 2-semester A&P. I am under the gun to teach A&P Online and
>
>> so far I have resisted giving up the wet lab experience.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Juville Dario-Becker
>> Central Virginia Community College
>> 3506 Wards Rd.,
>> Lynchburg, VA 24502
>> 434-832-7719
>>
>> ==========================================
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>> =========================================To manage subscription,send
>
>> email from the subscription address to imailsrv@xxxxxxxxxxx and in
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>
> ==========================================
> To manage subscription,send email from the subscription address to
> imailsrv@xxxxxxxxxxx and in MESSAGE (1)
>
> To unsubscribe from HAPS-L,
> put : unsubscribe HAPS-L,
>
> (2)To subscribe from a different address,
> put : subscribe HAPS-L your_full_name
> =========================================
> =========================================To manage subscription,send
> email from the
> subscription address to
> imailsrv@xxxxxxxxxxx and in MESSAGE (1)
>
> To unsubscribe from HAPS-L,
> put : unsubscribe HAPS-L,
>
> (2)To subscribe from a different address,
> put : subscribe HAPS-L your_full_name
> ========================================
> ==========================================
> To manage subscription,send email from the
> subscription address to
> imailsrv@xxxxxxxxxxx and in MESSAGE (1)
>
> To unsubscribe from HAPS-L,
> put : unsubscribe HAPS-L,
>
> (2)To subscribe from a different address,
> put : subscribe HAPS-L your_full_name
> =========================================
>
> ==========================================
> To manage subscription,send email from the
> subscription address to
> imailsrv@xxxxxxxxxxx and in MESSAGE (1)
>
> To unsubscribe from HAPS-L,
> put : unsubscribe HAPS-L,
>
> (2)To subscribe from a different address,
> put : subscribe HAPS-L your_full_name
> =========================================
==========================================
To manage subscription,send email from the
subscription address to
imailsrv@xxxxxxxxxxx and in MESSAGE (1)
To unsubscribe from HAPS-L,
put : unsubscribe HAPS-L,
(2)To subscribe from a different address,
put : subscribe HAPS-L your_full_name
==================================================================================To manage subscription,send email from the
subscription address to
imailsrv@xxxxxxxxxxx and in MESSAGE (1)
To unsubscribe from HAPS-L,
put : unsubscribe HAPS-L,
(2)To subscribe from a different address,
put : subscribe HAPS-L your_full_name
=======================================